I agree. It's all just pretty boys and girls selling sex wearing tight jeans and cowboy hats and sneering an attitude. But after all, it is a business run by suits and the $ sign rules. Give me Merle Haggard, George Jones, and any newcomer who is true to the tradition and can write songs from the heart and not from some song writer from tin pan alley trying to write from a playbook!

I grew up on a farm in Eastern Ontario. In the wee hours of the morning I could listen to WSM on my transistor radio because that was the only time the signal would get through. Made it tough to get up for chores some days.
There was a clear distinction between Country, Western and "hillbilly" music. Bluegrass would fit the latter category.
Like Bill, I like the old guys and gals too- Porter and Dolly, George and Tammy, Loretta, Patsy, Ferlin, Merle, Ray Price, Bill Monroe- even Leonard Skinner.
My response to Ann's question about the music serving more people is "So do the boxstores and fastfood joints."

Country and Western music industry has been handed over to the MTV generation where video appeal is what sells CDs. All the old-timers have been pushed out because they were not attractive on the videos, or the videos were just boring. Johnny Cash, before he died, had a resurgence of popularity for a couple of reasons. One, he had one of the younger people in the industry take a personal interest in producing him, and secondly because the videos he made in last few years were so visually compelling that a younger generation adopted him. The primary target demographic for sales as best that I can tell is about 12-30 and that may be pushing the upper limit. The CW music industry has pretty much eaten its ancestors. It is clear that some of the old-timers are a little bitter by their treatment and rightly so.

The question pertaining to Western is interesting, because I believe that part of C/W was pretty much cut out by the 1960's. Marty Robbins was one of the last to still mine the western aspect of the music, with a few resurgences later, including the "Highwaymen". However, in the past 30 years there has been some attention given to the rodeo cowboy.

There have been some artists that have managed to keep it alive, most notably "Riders In The Sky", but you won't normally find them on the C/W stations.

Western music was so important to an earlier generation because we grew up watching the westerns with the singing cowboys. Gene Autry in his day had 6 different million selling records at a time when a million records was really something!

Don't get me started. I love Western music, and it is still alive and kicking out here, but as Chris Ledoux so aptly put it, "you can't see it from the road." There is no money in it now, which in many ways is a good thing, because it keeps the organized crime boys out of it.

A lot of Western has moved into Americana, some has gone to Folk, but all in all the writers and singers who celebrate the West have run into a brick wall as far as airplay.

So many networks are now wholly owned subsidiaries of the corporations producing the popular music played over them. These companies worship at the altar of Narrow Format, and DO NOT play local artists, on pain of contract termination.

Narrow format dictates that genres must be rigidly targeted... stars must look like gigolos and prostitutes... and God forbid that anything smelling like actual HISTORY gets into the songs!

Just as porn sites are the dirty secret that funds the internet, narrow format marketing is the dirty secret shaping American music into the artificially angry crap that it is today.

After one particularly excruciating CMA Awards telecast a decade ago, I penned the song "They Call Him A Cowboy", dedicated to every screwed-up, narrow-hipped drugstore cowboy coming out of those Down East strip malls.

Note to Nashville...would you at least consider giving us the hats back? Keep the jeans, they're too tight to work in.

I can't tell who is singing today on C&W stations...the guys all sound alike and so do the girls, not to mention all the songs sound the same! While I'm not a super fan of the old "twangy" steel guitar classic country, I do feel that artists such as Michael Martin Murphy, Ian Tyson, Flaco Jimenez and the Texas Tornadoes deserve a whole lot more air time than they get. Too bad that Nashville doesn't promote great music but rather the commercial packaging of current C&W music.

Good suggestions Karen! Also, Asleep at the Wheel has done some great Western swing re-creations of Bob Wills songs. And how can you not like Riders in the Sky! These guys not only sing the music, but Ranger Doug is an actual historian of the music. He's written this great book about the history of western music. ("Singing in the Saddle," by Doug Green) And lest we forget -- how many of us swooned to Red Knuckles and the Trailblazers!

its always been this way folks. moneytalks,integrity walks. all music is suffering thru this today. dj's talk over the music on commercial radio. I'm an old rock n roller and i can't stand what rock radio has become. Even the "classic" rock stations are a joke. All they play are the major groups major hits.
The same is true on the country stations. I grew up in Baltimore listening to Ray Davis on WBMD. It was my intro to bluegrass. I don't think a "country" station today would play a group like the Seldom Scene or the Stanley Bros. They're so intent on pushing the civilized redneck b.s. , they lost what really made country a unique music. My advice is to check out the "altcountry" bands like BR549 or better yey Honky-Tonk Confidential if you want real country music.

This sounds an awful lot like the discussion of last week -- "Does Folk Music HAVE to Make a Difference" -- where people weighed in with their ideas of what makes music "folk". When is C&W not C&W? I know it takes more than a country twang and cowboy hat to make a country song, but how do you put it in a box and label it? I'm not a huge fan of the so-called traditional country music, although I did have some favourites (Loretta Lynn, Tammy Wynette, Charlie Pride come to mind). But I love the newer country, like Lonestar, the Dixie Chicks and Paul Brandt. There seems to be a lot of cross-over tunes, but that happens in all genres of music. Even, in the case of Garth Brooks, different genres in one artist's repertoire. Just look at the broad range of styles he uses, all the way from "Friends in Low Places" to "Thunder Rolls" (which has not one scrap of country reference in it). But you'd get arguments on both sides of the fence if you tried to say he wasn't a country singer.

Well, I could start by saying Horace Greeley DID mean Ohio and Illinois when he wrote "Go West, young man," But I won't (grin).

I'm not so much concerned about the lose of regionality (as a direct result of the 'broadcast standard' foisted on us by network radio in the late 1920s), that's a lost battle.

What I am concerned about is this rich musical heritage not being taken up by our younger music lovers. Most concerts and song circles seem to be the haven of us greybeards.

Methinks we need to rethink ourselves and remarket ourselves and start interesting our younger brethern with artists like The Nields, Ani DiFranco and Nickle Creek. And we have to start inviting and encouraging the youngsters into our circles with nurturing rather than distain for 'not living it.'

Just my thoughts. I'm not sure how to do it it, but I think we need to.

But young folks DO "live it" - they just live it differently. They have their own issues with life, and many times have to completely invent ways to tackle them. There are some terrific young songwriters out there, with some powerful observations.

The West is now urban, only 12% of Arizona's population lives outside of a major metropolitan area. Old pickup trucks and cowboys are for the most part a thing of the past, replaced by real estate salesmen and car dealers.

This New West is producing some great talent, but it isn't "Western" talent, because they just can't relate to lassoin' dogies or Western Swing dancing...they are more into all-night Raves or motocross racing.

Heck, that was how many of the real cowboys lived - whiskey, opium, prostitutes and fast horses have been replaced by Ecstasy, cocaine, one-night stands and Humvees.

The only thing that hasn't changed is that too many of us are still shooting each other.

Here in Wyoming we differentiate between "Country & Western Music" and "Cowboy Music." We have a lot of local Cowboy singers, most notably Dave Munsick, a very talented singer/songwriter. For bluegrass/folk there is the Empty Pockets. Nationally there is the Sons of the San Joachin, Michael Martin Murphey, Ian Tyson, Don Edwards and the like. I don't enjoy "Hot Country," but I love Cowboy music. Maybe because I grew up on Slim Whitman, Marty Robbins, and the like. (Thanks, Dad) I think the more authentic country music is making a grassroots comeback.

Hi Deb,

Heard a great Wyoming artist at the Prescott Folk Festival last year, singing "Sweet Wyoming Home". He had a cast on his leg, but I forget his name. Was getting quite a bit of NPR play up there, do you know of him?

I would like to believe that authentic music of all kinds is making a comeback. When the sales for the O Brother, Where Art Thou soundtrack took off, it wasn't thanks to radio play (except us), it was because that album is filled with great music. The Down From the Mountain tour came to town and the place was packed. The closest thing they had to a current recording star was Patti Loveless, but even she was singing bluegrass.

If you look at the Grammy nominations, it's the singer/songwriters like Norah Jones and John Mayer who are getting the attention (and the trophies) because they are really creating something. Even in the world of rap and R&B, artists who look into themselves and come up with fresh material are the most rewarded. Britney's last album totally tanked and Jessica Simpson, for all of her name recognition, doesn't have big album sales numbers.

If radio stations across the country, even (or maybe especially) those owned by the big conglomerates would go back to hiring talented people to put together great shows with a personal touch, they would raise listening and increase the rates their ad guys could charge. I think that's the main reason that satellite radio is so appealing - it's not cookie-cutter on purpose.

I miss DJs, I really do. The old-school, in-your-face risk takers that looked for great music because they loved it. If I want to listen to some butt-kisser
swoon over the latest company product, I can just walk down to the closest conference room.

It seems to me that the issue here is much larger than whether the music is "authentic" or not, but that the airwaves have been deregulated to the point that ALL of them are controlled by just a few conglomerates. The music we hear, the tv shows we see, and more importantly, the news we hear and read are all controlled by those that want to control our lives to increase THEIR gain. The public airwaves are swiftly becoming the private airwaves. We will have to remain diligent in keeping outlets like Folk Alley and public radio and tv and independent news sources alive, lest we become homogenous drones here just to make money for those conglomerates.

We have to keep looking for the independent musicians, the small record labels, internet sites like Folk Alley. Go! Listen to your local performers at coffee houses, take your friends! Introduce someone to the music you love! Remember! Those musicians are self supporting. Help them to prosper, buy extra copies of their albums to give away! We'll all be better for it.

Take pride in your independence from the ruling classes!

OK, my rant is over, I'm done! I'm taking my soapbox and going home now.

So, tell me. What is *western* music? Is it music about horses and cowboys? Is it music BY horses and cowboys? Is it regional music? (I love Asleep and the Wheel, Dan Hicks and His Hot Licks, etc.) . Lynyrd Skynyrd (not Leonard Skinner!) could, I suppose, be classified as country blues, but isn't it more Southern Rock? I'm afraid "Oh Brother" was an abberation. Garth Brooks was at his best when he sat in the spotlight and played his guitar -- alone.

Once again we are discussing money, I think. As someone else above mentioned, most popular media is owned by the same companies...so they play the music that sells, which makes the music sell, so they play the music that sells...and don't forget, Patsy Cline sold a few records in her time. No one is in the business - any kind of business - to go broke. Are they?

We should, indeed, support our local performers at coffee houses. We should send money to Folk Alley.

But...say...by definition isn't *folk* music, music of the average Joe? Doesn't that make country music, folk music? Doesn't that even make cowboy music - Gene Autry music - folk music?

Sorry, I had thought that Leonard Skinner was Roy Roger's birth name.

Sorry about the double post. Something tells me it should have been Leonard Sly.
I guess that this is moving similar to the "folk" discussion as Betty C. pointed out. Perhaps it is the intent of the writer/singer that defines it.
Or maybe some of us are reactionary and want to cling to the good ol' days.
One of my friends uses the term "heart" music- the stuff that reaches out and grabs us by the heart. Maybe that's another term for Country and Western or Folk et al.

Leonard Skinner was Ronnie Van Zandt's gym coach. Don't know if he was a cowboy before that.

Anyhow, they supposedly named Lynyrd Skynyrd after him for some reason.

This has been a sore point for me for quite some time. Growing up in the 50's & 60's exposed me to what I feel was the best 'popular' music ever. I went through the latter stages of what is now called 'Nostalgia' music in current radio parlance, the early days of Rock and Roll, the 'Folk Revival' of the early 60's, the 'British Invasion', Psychodelia, Heavy Metal, and the shift from C&W to 'Hot Country'. As things changed and my tastes couldn't keep up, my choices of listening became more and more narrow (the only thing that expanded was a growing interest in Classical music), so I avoided Disco, Grunge, Hip-Hop, the new 'Country', and particularly today's 'Pop'.
However, there are still sources for what I consider good music out there. Several people have mentioned Ian Tyson and Flaco. There is also Ian's pal Tom Russell, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, and if you want a real old time cowboy sound, try Skip Gorman (a true cowboy).
One could also ask a similar question about folk music. For better or worse, like C&W, it has and will continue to evolve. We seldom hear The Kingston Trio or The New Christy Minstrels on Folk Alley, but 40-50 years ago that where folk music was at.
Thanks for a chance to rant.

Got it- Leonard Slye aka Roy rogers
Had to look at an old Reader's Digest Country and Western Box set featuring The Sons of the Pioneers.

This was an interesting thread to follow. As a songwriter, I would just add that after writing a "Western" song, there was no thought of pitching it to Nashville, but showing it to some of the great Cowboy Singers out there like R.W. Hampton.

The type of music that Michael seems to be longing for is alive and well here in West Texas. Most of the performers that I know call it "Cowboy" music to show that it isn't the New Country.

Yeah, I miss Charley Pride too.

I was in Dallas a few years ago, and went to Billy Bob's (my friends told me that I had to go, all the tourists go there). I heard the BEST Western Swing there, totally unexpectedly. I'll have to visit West Texas. I liked MMM when he wasn't a cowboy song singer...and I like him now, though his recordings are hard to get.

Tom Russell is amazing. And thanks to Ed McGraw for mentioning people we should all remember...

Randy Sparks is coming to the Queen Creek Performing Arts Center this year, and rumor has it he'll be performing onstage again with Dolan Ellis. Those two haven't shared a stage in quite a while.

Just don't expect the local radio to mention it, and I'm betting the newspapers will have anyhting better to write about as well.

The Arizona Reporter has already printed something about the New Christy Minstrals concert. I don't know anything about the paper, but I pulled it off of the Internet.

That darned internet, it gets into everything!

West Texas has always been a fountain of songwriting talent (a dry, dusty, wind-blown fountain, but a fountain nonetheless). The number of great and lesser known and very original singers and songwriters from that part of the country is staggering. I would hate to begin listing them because I would not know where to end it without leaving someone important out, but the music from that region covers country and western, western swing,rockabilly, rock and roll, folk, blues, bluegrass, etc. Name an American music genre and you will find artists whose names you would recognize and may not know that is where they are from. They had a huge hand in shaping the American music landscape for many generations and continue to do so.

I think that there is something about the sense of remoteness of West Texas combined with a unique Texas individualism that helps to shape the character of those artists.

Snuff Garrett comes to mind - not so much as a writer, but as a hit-picker. Snuff lives out here in Scottsdale now, but still talks out of the side of his mouth.

How about ROY ORBISON, BOB WILLS, BUDDY HOLLY, BUTCH HANCOCK, ERNEST TUBB, LEFTY FRIZZELL, DARRELL CROFTS & JAMES SEALS, LARRY GATLIN, MARIJOHN WILKIN, LEE ROY PARNELL, DAN SEALS , JOE MELSON , GUY CLARK, WAYLON JENNINGS, MAC DAVIS, JIMMY DEAN, JERRY ALLISON, BOB WILLS, MASON WILLIAMS, SONNY CURTIS, NORMAN PETTY, GARY NUNN, DELBERT McCLINTON, BILL DEES , and TERRY STAFFORD, just to name a few. These are some of the better known names, but the list goes on.

Oops, I guess Bob Wills counts twice! Yeah!

Musta been HARD to find a decent job in West Texas!

Sons of the San Joachin - As cowboy as you can get.

Dan mentioned the Sons of the Pioneers with Roy Rodgers. I grew up on that. Happy Trails everyone!

I just picked up a pedal steel guitar, and maybe in six months I can consider myself a beginner, but I just found out how you can quantify the difference between 'country' and 'western'. When you see a steel guitar with two necks, one is tuned in E9 and the other in C6. I learned from a guy in Palatka that 'everybody' in Nashville plays from the E9 tuning and western swing exclusively uses the C9 tuning. Be that as it may, I've given up on current Nashville music and if I want to hear a western influence, I'll listen to Tom Russell.

"Given up on the current Nashville music"...What does that mean? Half of what you term as "Nashville music" is written and recorded in California or New York. The offices are sort of in Nashville, though plenty of those have moved out too.

The term "Country and Western" has dropped a lot of the western influences because the sound is (for various reasons) unappealing or hokey to younger listeners, though plenty of big country stars (George Strait, Joe Nichols, Alan Jackson) often record western swing arrangements. Still, the "cowboy a-riding on the western range" sound has become dated. This is not a criticism of the music, it's just a fact.

Think about R&B...I listen to what are known as "Rhythm and Blues" stations from time to time, but I rarely hear a real blues song. Elements of blues, yes. True blues, no. It's the same with "Country and Western," though y'all seem to have a little more angst or some strange chip on your shoulders about it....